Magna Carta

Today is the 800th anniversary of the signing of the Magna Carta by King John of England. I happen to descend from all the signatories of that august document.  There are 17 Magna Carta Barons who left progeny that are still alive today.    Another seven Barons only had progeny to the fourth generation, after which there is no known descendants.  And then there's the Mayor of London, William de Hardell about whom little is known.

I happen to have six ancestors of provable royal ancestry.  Of those, only two are really germane to this discussion, that is Elizabeth (Mansfield) Wilson and her double descents from Edward III and Rose (Stoughton) Otis and her descent from Henry III.  If the Edward I descent for Thomas Bradbury is fully proven, then he would be germane as well.   These descents are documented in the following works:

Gary Boyd Roberts, The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants to the American Colonies or the United States (Baltimore, Md.: Genealogical Publishing Co., 2008), pp. 167-8 (Wilson) and p. 376 (Otis but that uses an old line.  Use my line instead.)

Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families (2nd edition, 2011), II:130 (Wilson) and IV:112 (Otis).  This information is mirrored in the companion volumes of Douglas's Plantagenet Ancestry.

Over the next three weeks, I'll outline the descents from the signatories of the Magna Carta to these two women.

 

Comments

[Jaime A. Hayes]

Dear Martin,

Thanks for sharing your recent Magna Carta related postings - during this 800th anniversary year of the signing of the Magna Carta.

Based on your Magna Carta surety postings combined with posted comments - it appears that Rose (Stoughton) Otis was a descendant of at least the following ten Magna Carta sureties:

* Richard de Clare, Earl of Hertford
* Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester and Hertford
* John de Lacy, Earl of Lincoln
* Saier de Quincy, Earl of Winchester
* Roger le Bigod, 2nd Earl of Norfolk
* Hugh le Bigod, 3rd Earl of Norfolk
* William de Mowbray, Baron Axholme
* Sir William de Huntingfield
* William Malet
* William de Lanvallay

Do you know of any lines of descent from other Magna Carta sureties - to Rose (Stoughton) Otis ?

Thanks and regards,

Jaime

[Martin Hollick]

I don't really know. I played around with my database for a bit and found no relationship with the other five of the other sureties (Henry de Bohun, Robert de Vere, Geoffrey de Say, Robert Fitz Walter, John Fitz Robert). She does descend from William D'Aubigny of Belvoir and Robert de Ros as follows:

Sir Robert de Ros m. Isabel d'Aubigny (see my earlier posts)
Mary de Ros m. Sir William de Braiose, Lord of Bramber and Gower
William de Braiose, 2nd Lord Braiose of Bramber m. Agnes (---)
Aline de Braiose m. Sir John de Mowbray, 2nd Lord Mowbray
This connects with the line of Sir William de Mowbray posting.

So that gets her 12 of the 17 barons. She's collaterally related to the other five, but not directly descended (to my knowledge) from them.

Martin

[Jaime A. Hayes]

Thanks Martin,

There appears to be a few conflicting sources regarding the identity of the mother of William de Braiose, 2nd Lord Braiose of Bramber - who married Agnes (---).

The Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG) website (www.fmg.ac) - on their Medieval Lands - ‘Untitled English Nobility A - C’ webpage - and Briouse (Braose/Brewes) section - identifies William de Breuse, Lord Brewose’s mother as Mary de Ros, daughter of William de Ros & Isabel d’Aubigny - as you show above.

The “Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families”, by Douglas Richardson (2nd Edition, 2011) - Vol. I, pages 318-320 - identifies William de Brewes, 2nd Lord Brewes’ mother as Aline de Multon.
However, Mary de Roos is also mentioned as “allegedly” having had a son named William.

Do you know if Douglas Richardson has issued corrections for his above mentioned book ?

Thanks and regards,

Jaime

[Martin Hollick]

You are right that Magna Carta Ancestors shows William as the son of the first wife Aline de Multon. I haven't seen a correction by Douglas Richardson for this. It is repeated in “Whose Son was Peter de Braose?” by F.N. Craig, NEHGR 150 (1996):315-324. I'm not sure why I chose to make Mary de Ros his mother (except that I must have seen the FMG website). I'll confess that after a while you get lazy. I descend from Peter de Braose anyway, so I get Mary de Ros that way. And I get William, the 2nd Lord Braoase twice also, through daughters Joan and Aline. It makes more sense for William to be the son of the first marriage since he was the heir, and therefore the eldest. So, perhaps Rose Stoughton doesn't descend from those two other Magna Carta Sureties. Sorry.

[Jaime A. Hayes]

With quality genealogy sources showing conflicting information regarding the identity of the mother of William de Braiose, 2nd Lord Braiose of Bramber - who married Agnes (---) - I get the impression that further research is needed.

If Sir William de Braiose, Lord of Bramber and Gower did have a son William by his first wife - and another son William by his third wife Mary de Ros - then maybe the first son - named William - died young ?

[Martin Hollick]

That may be so, but at that time it was customary to name children the same given name so that at least one of them would survive. So, it is likely William had a son William by his first wife and another son William by his third wife. It is the elder son that was the heir.