The Slovak Yankee

Sir Robert Constable 1423-1488

Having finished all of Michael's families you can see that we do not share any American or colonial ancestors.  My family is all New England and Michael is all mid-Atlantic and Virginia.  (His Carman family starts in Dorchester, Massachusetts but moves pretty quickly to Long Island.  So our colonial ancestors were neighbors in Dorchester in the 1630s.)

But we do share medieval ancestors.  The closest ancestor that we share, that I can readily discover is Sir Robert Constable (Jr.) and his wife Agnes Wentworth.  They lived in the 15th century in Yorkshire, England.  Michael and I do also have Irish Catholic ancestry and if I could readily trace that ancestry back to the 1600s, we might share an Irish ancestor.  But to date, the closest I can get is 1423-1488.  I descend through their daughter Margaret  Constable who married Sir William Eure.  Michael descends from her sister Anne Constable who married Sir William Tyrwhit. (Michaels descends from two of their children).

 

Additional Thoughts on Isabel de Vermandois

Isabel de Vermandois lived from 1085 to 1131.  So she is two generations before the barons who signed the Magna Carta in 1215.  In 2015 for the 800th anniversary of the Magna Carta I showed that Anne Eure, who lived c.1530-c.1566, was a descendant of everyone who signed the Magna Carta that left descendants.  So there's little wonder that eight of Isabel's children are ancestors of Anne Eure who lived 450 years before her.

The English aristocracy and landed gentry were pretty insular during this time.  You easily find yourself descended from the same people over and over again.  I have four main royal gateway ancestors and I have found all of this from them.

 

Michael de la Pole, 2nd Earl of Suffolk

Michael de la Pole, c. 1367-1415 is a key ancestor to have.  His daughter Elizabeth de la Pole married secondly Sir Thomas Kerdeston.  By him she had Margaret Kerdeston who married John de Foix, Earl of Kendal.  Their son Gaston de Foix, Count of Candale m. Catherine of Navarre.  And lastly their daughter Anne became Queen of Bohemia and Hungary by marrying Vladislaus II.  This royal marriage unlocks most of continental Europe's royal families.  Anne of Bohemia and Hungary, the daughter of Vladislaus, married Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor.  That couple is ancestral to the Anne who married Philip III of Spain and the Anne who married Louis XIII of France.

So, going back to Michael de la Pole:

Michael de la  Pole m. Katherine de Stafford

Isabel de la Pole m. Thomas Morley, 5th Lord Morley

Anne Morley m. John Hastings, 9th Lord Hastings

Hugh Hastings, 10th Lord Hastings m. Anne Gascoigne

Muriel Hastings m. Sir Ralph Eure

William Eure, 1st Lord Eure m. Elizabeth Willoughby

 

So Muriel Hastings, a knight's wife, was the 3rd cousin of the Queen of Bohemia and Hungary. And her son William, an English lord was fourth cousins with the Holy Roman Emperor.

The Four de Warenne Descents from Isabel de Vermandois to Anne Eure

Isabel de Vermandois (d.1131) m. William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey

William de Warenne, 3^rd Earl of Surrey m. Ela Talvas

Isabel de Warenne, Countess of Surrey m. Hamelin Plantagenet, Earl of Surrey

William de Warenne, 6^th Earl Surrey m. Maud Marshal

John de Warenne, 7^th Earl of Surrey m. Alice de Lusignan

Sir William de Warenne m Joan de Vere

Alice de Warenne m. Edmund Fitzalan, 8^th Earl of Arundel

Aline Fitzalan m. Roger le Strange, 6^th Lord Strange of Knockyn

Elizabeth le Strange m. Philip le Despencer, 1^st Lord Despencer

Philip le Despencer, 2^nd Lord Despencer m Elizabeth de Tibetot

See Above or on previous posting

 

Isabel de Vermandois (d.1131) m. William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey

Ada de Warenne m. Henry, Earl of Northumberland

William I ”the Lion” King of Scotland with Isabel Avenal

Ada of Scotland m. Patrick, Earl of Dunbar

Patrick, 6th Earl of Dunbar m. Euphemia de Brus

Isabel of Dunbar m. Roger Fitz John, 4th Lord Warkworth

Roger Fitz Roger, 5th Baron Clavering m. Margery de la Zouche

Eupheme Fitzroger m. Ranulph de Neville, 1st Lord Neville of Raby

Ralph de Neville, 2nd Lord Neville m. Alice de Audley

Margaret de Neville m. Henry de Percy Earl of Northumberland

Henry Percy "Hotspur" m. Elizabeth Mortimer

Elizabeth Percy m. John Clifford, 7th Lord Clifford

Thomas Clifford, 8th Lord Clifford, m. Joan Dacre

John Clifford, 9th Lord Clifford m. Margaret Bromflete

Henry Clifford, 10th Lord Clifford m. Anne Saint John

Elizabeth Clifford m. Sir Ralph Bowes

Margery Bowes m. Sir Ralph Eure

Anne Eure

 

Isabel de Vermandois (d.1131) m. William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey

Gundred de Warenne m. Roger de Newburgh, 2^nd Earl of Warwick

Waleran de Newburgh, 4^th Earl of Warwick m. Alice de Harcourt

Alice de Newburgh m. William Mauduit, Lord Hanslope

Isabel Mauduit m. William de Beauchamp, 5^th Baron Beauchamp

Sarah de Beauchamp m. Richard Talbot

Gwellian Talbot m. Payne Turbeville

Agnes Turbeville m. John de la Bere

Elizabeth de la Bere m. Sir John Saint John

John Saint John m. Isabel Pavley

Sir Oliver Saint John m. Margaret Beauchamp, a descendant of the 5^th Baron Beauchamp

Sir John Saint John m. Alice Bradshaw

Anne Saint John m. Henry Clifford, 10^th Lord Clifford

Elizabeth Clifford m. Sir Ralph Bowes

Margery Bowes m. Sir Ralph Eure

Anne Eure

 

Isabel de Vermandois (d.1131) m. William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey

Reginald de Warenne m. Adeliza de Wirmegay

William de Warenne m. Beatrice de Pierpont

Beatrice de Warenne m. Doun Bardolf

William Bardolf m. (---)

William Bardolf m.Juliana de Gournay

Hugh Bardolf, 1^st Lord Bardolf m. Isabel Anguillon

Thomas Bardolf, 2^nd Lord Bardolf m. Agnes Grandison

Cecily de Bardolf m. William de Morley, 3^rd Lord Morley

Thomas Morley, 4^th Lord Morley m. Joan Hastings

Sir Robert Morley m. Isabel Moleyns

Thomas Morley, 5^th Lord Morley m. Lady Isabel de la Pole

Anne Morley m. John Hastings, 9^th Lord Hastings

See Above or on  previous posting

 

The Four Beaumont Descents of Isabel de Vermandois to Anne Eure

These are but four of a myriad of descents that can be found between these two persons.

Isabel de Vermandois (d. 1131) m. Robert de Beaumont, Earl Leicester

Robert de Beaumont, 2^nd Earl Leicester m. Amice de Montfort

Hawise de Beaumont m. William Fitz Robert, 2^nd Earl of Gloucester

Amice Fitz William m. Richard de Clare, Earl of Hertford

Maud de Clare m. William de Braiose

John de Braiose m. Margaret Ferch Prince Llywelyn

William de Braiose, Lord of Bamber and Gower m. Mary de Ros

Peter de Brewes m. Agnes de Clifford

Margaret de Brewes m. Thomas de Monthermer, 2^nd Lord Monthermer

Margaret de Monthermer m. Sir John de Montagu

Ellen de Montagu m. Sir John de Dinham

Muriel de Dinham m. Sir Edward Hastings, 8^th Lord Hastings

John Hastings, 9^th Lord Hastings m. Anne Morley

Hugh Hastings, 10^th Lord Hastings m. Anne Gascoigne

Muriel Hastings m. Sir Ralph Eure

William Eure, 1st Lord Eure m. Elizabeth Willoughby

Sir Ralph Eure m. Margery Bowes

Anne Eure (c. 1530-c. 1566) m. Lancelot Mansfield

 

Isabel de Vermandois (d. 1131) m. Robert de Beaumont, Earl Leicester

Waleran de Beaumont, Earl of Worcester m. Agnes de Montfort

Sir Robert de Beaumont, Count of Meulan m. Maud Fitzroy

Maud/Mabel de Beaumont m. William de Vernon, 5^th Earl of Devon

Mary de Vernon m. Robert de Courtenay, Baron Oakhampton

John de Courtenay, 2^nd Baron Oakhampton m. Isabel de Vere

Hugh de Courtenay, Baron Oakhampton m. Eleanor le Despencer

Hugh de Courtenay, 9^th Earl Devon m. Agnes Saint John

Eleanor de Courtenay m. Henry Grey, 1^st Baron Grey

Richard de Grey, 2^nd Baron Grey m. Joan Fitz Payn

John de Grey, 3^rd Baron Grey m. Alice de Lisle

Alice de Grey m. William de Everingham

Joan de Everingham m. Robert de Waterton

Joan de Waterton m. Lionel de Welles, 6^th Lord Welles

Cecily Welles m. Sir Robert Willoughby

Christopher Willoughby, 10^th Lord Willoughby m. Margaret Jenney

Elizabeth Willoughby m. William Eure, 1^st Lord Eure

See above

 

Isabel de Vermandois (d. 1131) m. Robert de Beaumont, Earl Leicester

Isabel de Beaumont m. Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Pembroke

Richard de Clare, 2^nd Earl of Pembroke m. Eva Macmurrough

Isabel de Clare m. William Marshal, 3^rd Earl Pembroke

Eve Marshal m. William de Braiose, 6^th Baron Braiose

Maud de Braiose m. Roger de Mortimer, 6^th Baron Mortimer

Edmund Mortimer, 7^th Lord Mortimer m. Margaret de Fiennes

Roger de Mortimer, 1^st Earl of March m. Joan de Geneville

Edmund Mortimer m. Elizabeth de Badlesmere

Roger Mortimer, 2nd Earl of March m. Phillipa de Montagu

Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March m. Phillipa of Clarence, Countess of Ulster

Elizabeth Mortimer m. Sir Henry Percy "Hotspur"

Elizabeth Percy m. John Clifford, 7th Lord Clifford

Thomas Clifford, 8th Lord Clifford m. Joan Dacre

John Clifford, 9th Lord Clifford m. Margaret Bromflete

Henry Clifford, 10th Lord Clifford m. Anne Saint John

Elizabeth Clifford m. Sir Ralph Bowes

Margery Bowes m. Sir Ralph Eure

Anne Eure

 

Isabel de Vermandois (d. 1131) m. Robert de Beaumont, Earl Leicester

Maud de Beaumont m. William de Lovel

William de Lovel m. Isabel (---)

Sir John de Lovel m. Katherine Basset

John Lovel m. Maud de Sydenham

Sir John Lovel, Lord Lovel m. Isabel de Bois

Maud Lovel m. William La Zouche, Lord Zouche of Haryngworth

Milicent la Zouche m. William Deincourt 2^nd Lord Deincourt

Margaret Deincourt m. Robert de Tibetot, 3^rd Lord Tibetot

Elizabeth de Tibetot m. Phillip le Despencer, 2^nd Lord Despencer

Margery Despencer m. Roger Wentworth

Agnes Wentworth m. Sir Robert Constable

Margaret Constable m. Sir William Eure

Sir Ralph Eure m. Muriel Hastings

See Above

Descent from Most Number of Children

In writing a recent post, I noted the couple Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of  March and his wife Joan de Geneville (sometimes rendered as Joinville).  I descend from four of their children.  This got me  to wondering which family do I descend from the most siblings. 

In terms of colonial ancestors that would have to be the Rev. Joseph Hull 1596-1665.  By two wives he had seventeen children and I descend from three:  Elizabeth (from whom I descend twice), Temperance, and Reuben.

But three is less than four and certainly some medieval couple must be the answer.  One such couple would be Henry of Huntingdon, Earl of Northumberland 1114-1152 and Ada de Warenne. I descend from five of their children: William "the Lion" King of Scotland, David, Earl of Huntingdon, Margaret, wife of Humprey IV de Bohun, Ada, wife of Florent III, Count of Holland, and Marjory, wife of Gilchrist de Angus, Earl of Angus.

But the true winner is Ada de Warenne's mother, Isabel (or Elizabeth) of Vermandois.  By her two husbands she is the mother of thirteen children and I descend from eight of them.  From her first marriage to Roger de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester (d. 1118), I descend from Robert, 2nd Earl of Leicester, Waleran, Earl of Worcester, Isabel, the wife of Gilbert de Clare, Earl of  Pembroke, and Maud, wife of William de Lovel.  By her second marriage to William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey (d. 1138), I descend from William, Earl of Surrey, the aforementioned Ada de Warenne, Gundred, wife of Roger de Newburgh, Earl of Warwick, and Reginald de Warenne.

It should be noted that Isabel de Beaumont was a mistress to King Henry I of England.

 

Isabella d'Angouleme 1188-1246

Isabella is well known as the second wife of King John of England and the mother of his heir Henry III.  But Isabella remarried after John's death to Hugh X de Lusignan, Count of La Marche and had more children.  Here are two descents from children of the second marriage of Isabella d'Angouleme.

1. Isabella d'Angouleme m. Hugh X de Lusignan
2. Alice de Lusignan m. John de Warenne, 7th Earl of Surrey
3. Sir William de Warenne m. Joan de Vere
4. Alice de Warenne m. Edmund Fitzalan, 8th Earl of Arundel, who was the son of Sir Richard Fitzalan and Alasia de Saluzzo for descents from them see my earlier post entitled Nine Lines from Alasia de Saluzzo to Anne Eure

 

1. Isabella d'Angouleme m. Hugh X de Lusignan
2. Hugh XI de Lusignan m. Yolande de Dreux
3. Hugh XII de Lusignan m. Jeanne de Fougeres
4. Jean de Lusignan m. Sir Piers de Geneville, Baron Geneville (sometimes rendered as Joinville)
5. Joan de Geneville m. Roger de Mortimer, 1st Earl of March
6. Edmund Mortimer m. Elizabeth de Badlesmere
7. Roger Mortimer, 2nd Earl of March m. Phillipa de Montagu
8. Edmund  Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March m. Phillipa of Clarence, Countess of Ulster
9. Elizabeth Mortimer m. Sir Henry Percy "Hotspur"
10. Elizabeth Percy m. John Clifford, 7th Lord Clifford
11. Thomas Clifford, 8th Lord Clifford m. Joan Dacre
12. John Clifford, 9th Lord Clifford m. Margaret Bromflete
13. Henry Clifford, 10th Lord Clifford m. Anne Saint John
14. Elizabeth Clifford m. Sir Ralph Bowes
15. Margery Bowes m. Sir Ralph Eure
16. Anne Eure

There are many descents from couple #5 that can be traced.  This is but one.

 

Scottish Kings to Anne Eure

The most obvious king of Scotland behind Anne Eure or Edward III is Malcolm III King of Scotland 1058-1093.  His daughter Mathilda married Henry I of England.  But there are other lines from the Scottish Kings that are not so obvious.

1. Alexander II King of Scotland 1214-1249 m. Isabell Countess of Atholl
2. Marjory m. Sir Alan Durward, Earl of Atholl
3. Anne Durward m. Sir William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby
4. Sir William de Ferrers, 1st Lord Ferrers m. Margaret de Segrave
5. Anne Ferrers m. Sir Edward le Despencer
6. Edward le Despencer, 4th Lord Despencer m. Elizabeth de Burghersh
7. Anne le Despencer m. Sir Hugh Hastings
8. Sir Edward Hastings, 8th Lord Hastings m. Muriel de Dinham
9. John Hastings, 9th Lord Hastings m. Anne Morley
10. Hugh Hastings, 10th Lord Hastings m. Anne Gascoigne
11. Muriel Hastings m. Sir Ralph Eure
12. William Eure, 1st Lord Eure m. Elizabeth Willoughby
13. Sir Ralph Eure m. Margery Bowes
14. Anne Eure

 

1. William "the Lion" King of Scotland (father of Alexander II) with Isabel Avenal
2. Ada m. Patrick, Earl of Dunbar
3. Patrick, 6th Earl of Dunbar m. Euphemia de Brus
4. Isabel of Dunbar  m. Roger Fitz John, 4th Lord Warkworth
5. Roger Fitz Roger, 5th Baron Clavering m. Margery de la Zouche
6. Eupheme Fitzroger m. Ranulph de Neville, 1st Lord Neville of Raby
7. Ralph de Neville, 2nd Lord Neville m. Alice  de Audley
8. Margaret de Neville m. Henry de Percy Earl of Northumberland
9. Henry Percy "Hotspur" m. Elizabeth Mortimer
10. Elizabeth Percy m. John Clifford, 7th Lord Clifford
11. Thomas Clifford, 8th Lord Clifford, m. Joan Dacre
12. John Clifford, 9th Lord Clifford m. Margaret Bromflete
13. Henry Clifford, 10th Lord Clifford m. Anne Saint John
14. Elizabeth Clifford m. Sir Ralph Bowes
15. Margery Bowes m. Sir Ralph Eure
16. Anne Eure

These are but two lines.  There are myriad more.

 

 

Godiva Descents

Here are two descents from Lady Godiva to gateway ancestors Rose (Stoughton) Otis and Elizabeth (Mansfield) Wilson.  There are probably a slew of  valid descents but here's just two  of them.

1. Leofric, Earl of Mercia m. Godiva
2. Aelfgar, Earl of Mercia
3. Edith m. Gruffydd ap Llewelyn, King of Wales
4. Nest m. Osbern Fitz Richard
5. Nesta Fitz Osbern m. Bernard de Neufmarche, Lord of Briton
6. Sibyl de Neufmarche m. Miles Fitz Walter, Earl of Hereford
7. Lucy Fitz Walter m. Herbert Fitz Herbert
8. Peter Fitz Herbert m. Alice Fitz Robert
9. Sir Reginald Fitz Piers m. Alice (---)
10. Alice Fitz Piers m. John Saint John, Seneschal of Gascony
11. Sir Edward Saint John m. Eve Dautry
12. Sir Edward Saint John m. Anastasia Atton
13. Margaret Saint John m. Sir Thomas Bromflete
14. Henry Bromflete, Lord Vessy m. Eleanor Fitzhugh
15. Margaret Bromflete m. John Clifford, 9^th Lord Clifford
16. Henry Clifford, 10^th Lord Clifford m. Anne Saint John
17. Elizabeth Clifford m. Sir Ralph Bowes
18. Margery Bowes m. Sir Ralph Eure
19. Anne Eure m. Lancelot Mansfield
20. John Mansfield m Elizabeth (---)
21. Elizabeth Mansfield m. John Wilson of Boston Mass.

Leofric, Earl of Mercia m. Godiva

Aelfgar, Earl of Mercia

Edith m. Gruffydd ap Llewelyn, King of Wales

Nest m. Osbern Fitz Richard

Nesta Fitz Osbern m. Bernard de Neufmarche, Lord of Briton

Sibyl de Neufmarche m. Miles Fitz Walter, Earl of Hereford

Lucy Fitz Walter m. Herbert Fitz Herbert

Peter Fitz Herbert m. Alice Fitz Robert

Sir Reginald Fitz Piers m. Joan de Vivonne

Reynold Fitz Reynold m. Joan Martel

Herbert Fitz Reynold m. Lucy Peverell

Sir Reynold Fitzherbert m. Joan Hakluyt

Alice Fitzherbert m. Sir Thomas West

Sir Thomas West, 1^st Lord West m. Joan la Warre

Sir Reynold West, 6^th Baron de la Warre m. Margaret Thorley

Mary West m. Sir Roger Lewknor

Roger Lewknor m. Anne (---)

Edmund Lewknor m. Joan Tyrrell

Elizabeth Lewknor m . Thomas Stoughton

Sir Lawrence Stoughton m. Rose Ive

Sir Anthony Stoughton m. Agnes Pierce

Rose Stoughton m. Richard Otis of Dover, N.H.

Isaac II Angelos, Istanbul and me

As I mentioned in another post, anyone descended from Edward III of England is also a descendant of the Byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelos who lived 1156-1204.  In fact there are a myriad of descents from him to people who descend from Anne Eure:

Issac II Angelos, Emperor of Byzantium m. Irene

Irene Angelica m. Philip II, Emperor of Germany

Maria m. Henry II, Duke of Brabant

Matilda of Brabant                                  Henry III, Duke of Brabant

m. Robert I, Prince of France         m. Alix of Burgundy

 

Blanche of Artois m. 1^st                             Marie of Brabant m.

Henry King of Navarre                        Philip III of France

 

Joan of Navarre m.                                    Marguerite of France m.

Philip IV of France                                    Edward I of England

 

Isabelle of France m.                                 Thomas, Earl of Norfolk m.

Edward II of England                                Alice de Hales

 

Edward III of England                        Margaret of Norfolk

 

By her second marriage:

Blanche of Artois m. Edmund, Earl of Lancaster

Henry, 2^nd Earl of Lancaster m. Maud de Chaworth

I descend from four of their daughters: Maud, Joan, Eleanor, and Mary.

So that's a total of seven lines (two from Edward III, one from Margaret of Norfolk, and 4 from Henry, 2nd Earl of Lancaster).

 

So  when I visited Istanbul in 2014 and stepped into the Haggi Sophia, it was first time in 800 years my particular bloodline was there.  Of course, Isaac II worshiped there all the time.  Also he was Eastern  Orthodox and his daughter immediately upon marriage became Catholic as were all my ancestors up to the 1500s when they all became protestant.  Then I converted back to Eastern Orthodox as an adult.  So I have both a historical and theological tie to Isaac II  Angelos.