The Slovak Yankee

Capetians v. Normans

It's not surprising that Edward III and Philippa of Hainault descend from the same people over and over again.  We all do.  But what's surprising is the amount of intermarriage done by the Capetians v. the Normans.

Starting with Robert II, King of France 972-1031 has lines through his heir and daughter Adele and son Robert, Duke of Burgundy.  Through this last son are the dukes of Burgundy and the kings of Portugal.

Henry I, lines through his heir and Hugh, Count of Vermandois

Philip I, lines through his heir and Constance of France

Louis VI, lines through his heir and sons Peter and Robert

Louis VII, lines through his heir and daughters Marie and Alice

Philip II, lines through his heir

Louis VIII, lines through his heir and sons Robert and Charles

Louis IX, line through his heir

Philip III, line through his heir and son Charles

Philip IV, line through his daughter Isabella.

Now let's compare that list to the Normans:

William I, line through his heir and daughter Adela

Henry I, line through his daughter [but many illegitimate offspring that married into the English nobility]

Matilda, line through her son

Henry II, line through his heir and daughter Eleanor

John, line through his heir (and again many illegitimate children)

Henry III, line through his heir and son Edmund (into English nobility).

Edward I, line through his heir.  His daughters and other sons leave progeny in the English nobility but not the European royal houses. (Except the Brabants).

Edward II, line through his heir.

Edward III, many children.

 

Harold Godwinson of England

I'm probably the last person to realize this, but I'm a descendant of Harold Godwinson (Harold II) King of England, the man defeated at the Battle of Hastings by William the Conqueror.  I always assumed that he died in battle and had no children since no further claims to the throne were made.  But he had a daughter and through her we all descend from Harold.

1. Harold Godwinson m. Edith the Fair
2. Gytha of Wessex m. Vladimir II, Grand Prince of Kiev
3. Mstislav, Grand Prince of Kiev m. Liubava Dmitrievna Zavidich
4. Euphrosyne of Kiev m. Geza II, King of Hungary
5. Bela III, King of Hungary m. Agnes of Antioch
6. Andrew II, King of Hungary m. Gertrude of Meran
7. Bela IV, King of Hungary m. Princess Marie
8. Stephen V, King of Hungary m. Elizabeth of Bosnia
9. Maria of Hungary m. Charles, King of Naples and Sicily
10. Marguerite m. Charles Valois, Prince of France
11. Jeanne de Valois m. William III, Count of Hainault
12. Philippa of Hainault m. Edward III, King of England

Thus, Harold Godwinson and William the Conqueror's blood was combined in the children of  Edward III.

 

 

St. Louis IX of France

August 25th was St. Louis's feast day.  He is twice in the ancestry of the children of Edward III.

1. Louis IX m. Margaret of Provence
2. Philip III m. Isabella of Aragon
3. Philip IV m. Joan of Navarre            3. Charles Valois m. Marguerite of  Sicily and Naples
4. Isabella of France m. Edward II        4. Jeanne Valois m. William III of Hainault
5. Edward III m. Philippa of Hainault, second cousins

I've noted other saints among medieval monarchs including St. Margaret of Scotland and St. Arnoud of France.

 

 

John Fulnetby

The Fulnetby's weren't very imaginative and named the heir of their line John Fulnetby for five generations.   Therefore you have to sort through all the John Fulnetby's and assign to them a correct wife or wives.

 

1. John Fulnetby born say 1390 was alive in April 1429 when he is named in a lawsuit with his wife.  He was the son of John Fulnetby and Eleanor Skipwith.  John married Jane (or Joan) Towers who was also alive in April 1429.
2. John Fulnetby born say 1420.  He married a daughter of Gerard Sothill according to the Visitations.
3. John Fulnetby born about 1455 and died before 3 November 1528.  He married twice, first to Elizabeth Eland by whom he had two daughters and then to Jane Dymoke born say 1465, daughter of Sir Thomas Dymoke and Margaret de Welles.  Through this marriage all descendants share a descent from Edward I of England.
4. Several children including Godfrey Fulnetby and Katherine Fulnetby and Elizabeth Fulnetby who married Gerard Sothill.  Godfrey married a Goodrich which made him and his sisters near kin of the Bishop of Ely.

You can see that Visitations clearly note a Fulnetby and Sothill marriage but disagree when and which generation.  However, by marriage #2 if provable Thomas Bradbury would have additional royal ancestry as follows:

1. William I, "the Lion" King of Scotland with Isabel Avenal
2. Isabel of Scotland m. Robert de Ros
3. Sir Robert de Ros m. Christine Bertram
4. Robert de Ros m. Margaret Brus
5. Robert de Ros m. Laura (---)
6. Margaret de Ros m. John Salweyn
7. Sir Gerard Salvain m. Agnes Mauleverer
8. Sir Gerard Salvain m. Alice (---)
9. Muriel Salvain m. Sir Gerard Sothill
10. daughter m. John Fulnetby
11. John Fulnetby m. Jane Dymoke
12. Katherine Fulnetby m. William Dynewell
13. Anne Dynewell m. Henry Whitgift
14. William Whitgift m. Margaret Bell
15. Elizabeth Whitgift m. Wymond Bradbury
16. Thomas Bradbury

 

*Caution.  The above pedigree is rendered no good by the completion of the William Wentworth article which shows Sir Gerald Sothill married a Joan (---) Wascelin.  The Salvain descent is thrown out.

Stirnet.com

In the ongoing question of the Southill/Fulnetby connection I needed to consult the visitations again.   Sadly I no longer live near a library that has the visitations in print.  I used to work at Widener Library which had them or I could use them at the NEHGS Library in Boston.

But online, Stirnet.com has transcribed the visitations and made them searchable.  It costs money to see the results, but it was only about $20 for a one month subscription.

As I remembered, the John Fulnetby who marries a Dymoke is given as a son of another John Fulnetby and daughter of Gerard Sothill/Southill.  Also it gives that the John and Dymoke couple have a daughter Elizabeth Fulnetby who marries a Gerard Southill.  So  you can see that some connection between the Fulnetby and Sothill families exist but they are confused as to where and what generation.

The Gerard Sothill who married Elizabeth Fulnetby is given as the son of another  Gerard Sothill who married Muriel Slavin.  (In the Sothill visitation).  If the timeline holds then the Sothill daughter who married the senior John Fulnetby should be a daughter of Gerard Sothill and Muriel Slavin.  This would  connect Thomas Bradbury with further medieval ancestry.  The Slavins descend from the Ros family.

Stirnet was easy to subscribe to and easily searchable.  It is certainly worth the money for the  information it contains.

 

Edward III's Sword

When you visit Windsor Castle you see two things:  St. George's Chapel and the State Apartments.  At the entrance there is a sign signaling no photographs allowed.  Indeed upon entering St. George's Chapel another sign says the same thing.  I therefore put my phone in my pocket.

The first thing you happen upon is the grave of King George V and his wife Mary.  Further along that aisle on the opposite side are the graves of George VI, Elizabeth the Queen Mother, Elizabeth II and  Prince Philip and Princess Margaret.  You weave your way around the choir in the chapel and end up in the opposite aisle from the one you entered.

There is the sword of Edward III and his portrait.  I'm not sure why, but in that moment I thought, he's my ancestor, I need a photo of this.  So out came the phone and I clicked one of the sword and aimed at the portrait.  At that moment, Michael said to me, you know there are no pictures allowed here.  The phone slipped and I got half of the portrait.  I put the phone away and was not caught.

When I arrived home, I googed King Edward III's sword and sure enough many images of it exists online.  I'm not sure what the hierarchy of Windsor means by not photos when both the sword and the portrait are online.  Maybe it's a copyright thing.  As such I will not publish my illicit photos.  You can just google them for yourself.

And Michael did the same thing in the royal chapel of Hampton Court.  So we have two sets of illicit photos from our trip.

 

Order of the Garter

I was in St. George's Chapel in Windsor which is the home to the Order of the Garter.  I'm amazed that I descend from several men in the founding knights of the order.

• Edward III
• Thomas de Beauchamp, 11th Earl of Warwick
• Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl Stafford
• Roger Mortimer, 2nd Earl of March
• Bartholomew de Burghersh, 2nd Baron Burghersh
• John de Grey, 1st Baron Grey of Rotherfield

And of course over time John of Gaunt and Lionel of Antwerp were added.

 

John de Baliol and Devorgilla of Galloway

On my recent trip to England, I was in Oxford and one of the colleges there that was open  was Baliol College.  On the wall is a sign for the benefactor of the college and it  is  Sir John de Baliol and his wife  Devorgilla of Galloway.  I descend from them in two ways.

1. John de Baliol m. Devorgilla of Galloway
2. Cecily de Baliol m. Sir John de Burgh, Baron Lanvalay
3. Hawise de Burgh m. Sir Robert de Grelle
4. Joan de Grelle m. John la Warre, 2nd Lord de la Warre
5. Sir John la Warre m. Margaret de Holand
6. Roger la Warre, 3rd Lord de la Warre m. Eleanor de Mowbray
7. Joan la Warre m. Sir Thomas West, 1st Lord West
8. Sir Reynold West, 6th Baron de la Warre m. Margaret Thorley
9. Mary West m. Sir Roger Lewknor
10. Roger Lewknor, Esquire m. Anne (---)
11. Edmund Lewknor m. Joan Tyrell
12. Elizabeth Lewknor m. Thomas Stoughton
13. Sir Lawrence Stoughton m. Rose Ive
14. Sir Anthony Stoughton m. Agnes Pierce
15. Rose Stoughton of Dover, New Hampshire m. Richard Otis

 

And Line #2

1. Sir John de Baliol m. Devorgilla of Galloway
2. Cecily  de Balliol m. Sir John de Burgh, Baron Lanvalay
3. Devorgilla de Burgh m. Sir Robert Fitz Walter, 1st Lord Fitzwalter
4. Christian de Burgh m. Sir William Marshal, 1st Lord Marshal
5. Hawise Marshal m. Robert de Morley, 2nd Lord Morley
6. William de Morley, 3rd Lord Morley m. Cecily de Bardolph
7. Thomas de Morley, 4th Lord Morley m. Joan Hastings
8. Sir Robert de Morley m. Isabel Moleyns
9. Thomas de Morley, 5th Lord Morley m. Isabel de la Pole
10. Anne Morley m. Sir John Hastings, 9th Lord Hastings who were second cousins once removed
11. Sir Hugh Hastings, 10th Lord Hastings m. Anne Gascoigne
12. Muriel Hastings m. Sir Ralph Eure
13. William Eure, 1st Lord Eure m. Elizabeth  Willoughby
14. Sir Ralph  Eure m. Margery Bowes
15. Anne Eure, paternal grandmother of Elizabeth Mansfield Wilson of Boston, Mass.

 

 

 

Lionel de Welles, K.G.

I wrote the Thomas Bradbury article and it has a logical hypothesis on the royal line through the Fulnetbys.  I include it in my own database because I descend from Thomas Bradbury, but I also descend from the key couple in the line already.  That couple is Lionel de  Welles, the 6th Lord Welles who died in 1461 and his wife Joan de Waterton.  Among their children were:

1. Cecily de Welles m. Sir Robert Willoughby
2. Christopher Willoughby, 10th Lord Willoughby m. Margaret Jenney
3. Elizabeth Willoughby m. William Eure, 1st Lord Eure
4. Sir Ralph Eure m. Margery Bowes
5. Anne  Eure m. Lancelot Mansfield
6. John Mansfield m. Elizabeth (---)
7. Elizabeth Mansfield of Boston, Mass. m. John Wilson

 

1. Margaret de Welles, sister of Cicely m. Sir Thomas Dymoke
2. Jane Dymoke m. John Fulnetby
3. Katherine Fulnetby m. William Dynewell
4. Anne Dynewell m. Henry Whitgift
5. William Whitgift m. Margaret Bell
6. Elizabeth Whitgift m. Wymond Bradbury
7. Thomas Bradbury of Salisbury, Mass. m. Mary Perkins

So  I descend from this couple no matter what.  If this identification holds up then Elizabeth Mansfield and Thomas Bradbury were sixth cousins.  Lionel is given a page in the Ancestry of American Presidents.  Among his descendants are George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, and both Bush presidents.

 Lionel is also an ancestor of Michael's royal ancestor Anne Skipwith Goforth.

1. Margaret de Welles m. Sir  Thomas  Dymoke
2. Lionel Dymoke m. Joan Griffith
3. Alice Dymoke m. William Skipwith
4. Henry Skipwith m. Jane Hall
5. Anne Skipwith m. Henry Smith
6. Sarah Smith m. Dr. Patrick Saunders
7. Honora Saunders m. Willoughby Skipwith (half third cousins through the Skipwith family)
8. Anne Skipwith, of Philadelphia, Penn. m. William Goforth

 

Visitations

I was enjoying a recent article in TAG on the Sothill and Fauconberge ancestry of William  Wentworth of New Hampshire.  He was the only New Hampshire person of gentry origins and of royal descent until I discovered Rose (Stoughton) Otis's background.  Now the Sanborn brothers make three New Hampshirites of royal descent.

Anyway,  William Wentworth has many descendants and it's been hard to prove a true royal line for him.  This TAG article shows previously unknown gentry and noble ancestors.  I was intrigued since I had Sothill and Fauconberge ancestry myself through other lines.  In 2007 I ghost wrote an article for the late Marshall Kirk  on the royal line of Thomas Bradbury.  That line went through the couple John Fulnetby and Jane Dymoke.  Using the 1562 Visitations of Lincolnshire I saw that John Fulnetby was the son of another John Fultnetby and a daughter of Gerard Sothill.  Using the TAG article, the time seemed to indicate that this was the same Gerard Sothill as in the TAG article.  This would give Thomas Bradbury some added ancestry.

I wrote to the author (since TAG is notoriously slow and I needed the second half of the article).  Sadly, he shot down my thesis and noted that the 1562 Visitations is very faulty on the Fulnetby family.

I already had many similar lines.  I descend from both Margery and  William Facounberge through the St. Quintin family which is ancestral to the Fitzhugh family (specifically Henry Fitzhugh, the 3rd Lord Fitzhugh and his wife Elizabeth de Grey.  I descend from three of their children).

I also descend from Sir Robert de Ros and his wife Isabel d'Aubigny through their children William and Mary.

Lastly, I descend from Sir John de Patshull and his wife Mabel de Grandison through their daughter Sibyl who married Sir Roger Beauchamp and are ancestral to Margaret de Beauchamp of whom I've recently written. 

So most of the ancestry lost by the Sothill connection I already had anyway through Anne Eure.

You can use  the Visitations for clues and they are accurate the closer they are to the date of the Visitation.  In this case 1562 is 150 years after the events in question.  Clearly there was a Fulnetby/Sothill connection (which will be revealed in the second part of the article) just not my connection.